Origin Stories x The Science Podcast

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– This is Origin Stories,
the Leakey Foundation podcast.

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I’m Meredith Johnson. Today
we have a very special episode

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with two curated stories
from our friends at the

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Science podcast.

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The Science Podcast is a
weekly show from the Journal

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Science and the American Association

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for the Advancement of Science.

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Each week on the Science podcast
host Sarah Crespi explores

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the latest discoveries with researchers

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and news writers from around the world.

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You’ll learn about everything from

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how scientists are battling
stink bugs, using Samurai wasps

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to peacock tail, feathers
ability to emit laser light,

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and how ant eaters have
evolved at least 12 times.

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Sarah and the team at Science sent us two

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stories just for you.

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The first story is from
producer Kevin McClain,

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who you might remember from his
origin stories episode about

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Capuchin monkeys that use Stone tools.

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In this first segment
from the Science podcast,

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Kevin interviewed Ann Gibbons,
a writer at Science Magazine

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who specializes in stories
about human evolution.

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Anne recently wrote a feature
about discoveries in South

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Africa’s cradle of humankind
where researchers found remains

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of homoerectus

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and two other species

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of ancient hominins suggesting
all three coexisted at the

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same time in the same place.

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– Hi Anne. Welcome back
to the Science podcast.

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– Thanks
– For having me.

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– We are so glad to have you back.

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You know, I know we have a bunch

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of different ancestral
characters all living together

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and I wanna get into them,

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but first, when did you
first get wind of this story

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and when did you start tracking it?

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– We have known for quite some time

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that different hominins probably
overlapped in Africa early

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on more than 2 million years ago.

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We know this from different
fossil sites in East Africa

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and South Africa, but nailing
it down has been really hard

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because when you find fossils
in a layer of sediment,

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that layer can represent a day or two,

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or it can represent thousands of years

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or tens of thousands of years.

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So it’s hard to prove it,

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but we’ve been getting
whiffs from different places.

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Not only have fossils been found
in the same layers roughly,

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but footprints were found in East Africa.

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So this story has been
getting interesting.

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We’ve beginning to see
this magical coexistence.

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And a couple of years ago
at a meeting at Stony Brook

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University, I heard this
paleo anthropologist,

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Jose Bragga talk about his
work at this famous site

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of Crom Dry in the Cradle of Humankind,

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which is a historic site

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where people have been
working for a long, long time.

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And he talked about finding fossils

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of baby homo early homoerectus,

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and also fossils of baby
carus in the same layer.

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And I thought, oh my goodness,

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they’re right next to each other.

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And then as I looked into
it, it wasn’t just his site,

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it was another site nearby

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and I thought, oh, I’ve got to get there.

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I’ve gotta get there and I’ve
gotta see this for myself.

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And then I just waited until
the different teams working at

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the different sites would
be there at the same time.

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– Yeah, you actually got a
chance to go and visit the sites.

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I know you’ve written a lot about some

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of the famous sites in East Africa,

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but had you ever been to any

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of these places in South Africa before?

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– Yeah, I had not been to South Africa,

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and I’ve always wanted to go,

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which when I got there I thought,

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why didn’t I get here sooner?

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I can’t believe I have not been
to the cradle of humankind,

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which is, you know, a storied place.

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South Africa is also the
first place where a fossil

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of a member of the human family.

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A hominin was found a hundred
years ago by Raymond Dart.

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Certainly the earliest members

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of the human family arose in East Africa,

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but South Africa has yielded
incredibly important fossils

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that illuminate other
times in human evolution.

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What I was really interested
in was when the first members

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of our genus, homo
Homoerectus start to appear

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around 2 million years
ago, this is a species

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that is a key human ancestor
that eventually starts

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to have a much bigger brain
and a body plan more like ours.

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And just a few years ago,
a team in South Africa

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that worked at a site called
Drin found erectus dating

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to about 2 million years.

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They said that these were the
earliest members of erectus.

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That to me, was a really
interesting moment when our genus

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is beginning to evolve,
so it begins more like us.

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But who else was around
when that was happening?

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How did it that influence it?

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– Can you give me a rundown
of the different hominins

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that you were talking about in the story?

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– At Chrome Dry and Drin

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and another site called Swar crons,

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researchers have found two
different era, different genus.

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We’re not even talking different
species, it’s bigger than

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that early homo, which is our genus,

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and also paranthropus, which
is this, it means beside man,

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paranthropus and law and
Paranthropus was a hominin.

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It was a upright walking.

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These are all upright walking apes,

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really, which is what we are.

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They’re upright walking hominins.

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They didn’t really look like us.

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You wouldn’t, as as other
researchers have said,

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you wouldn’t really necessarily
invite them to dinner.

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They’re gonna be hairy
small brained with brains,

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not much bigger than an apes walking

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around on the landscape upright.

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They are living in this area
together. Opus is more robust.

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The first thing you would’ve
noticed about it is this huge

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head, which seems disproportionate
to its small body.

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So that’s Parentis much more robust.

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Jaws and Skull early homo, still

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with a brain about a
third bigger than an apes,

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not huge at this point, probably
still quite small as well.

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And then you also have
lingering, we think,

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with some overlap based on
dates from another site.

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We think OSUs.

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Now, if you’ve heard of
Lucy, her genus was OSUs.

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She lived about 3.1 million
years ago in Ethiopia.

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There is another type of OSUs
in South Africa that starts

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to appear at least 3
million years ago called O

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Osteous Africanist, maybe
more than one species.

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There’s a lot of debate about this.

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Asopus appears first in South Africa.

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That was what the Tong
child was from the 1920s

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and this beautiful skeleton little foot

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around 3 million years ago.

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So we’ve got these different
forms, very different kinds

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of hominins all living in
an incredibly small area.

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– When I was reading your story,

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I loved seeing the portraits
of the different hominins

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or you know, what we
think they looked like.

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You can totally see exactly
what you’re talking about.

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Homoerectus is it’s our genus
and it looks the most like us.

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And then you get that
smaller Australopithecus,

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and then you’ve got that big
head and jaw of Paranthropus.

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There’s also a really nice map
in the story to give a sense

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of the geography of the place.

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I was so surprised these
sites are really not very far

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apart from each other.

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– So that’s the magic of South Africa.

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What’s really special
about South Africa is

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that these fossil sites are
in a little area we’re calling

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today the cradle of humankind.

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Okay. It’s a UNESCO World Heritage site,

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which is roughly the size
of the District of Columbia,

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or you know, the principality of Andor,

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whatever’s most familiar to you.

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Yeah, the actual case sites
I went to are even closer.

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So all these caves, the areas
riddled with these caves

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where researchers are
finding incredible diversity

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of prominence at different times,

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but especially around 2 million years ago,

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we’ve got these different
kinds that were all there.

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And the big riddle is
did they see each other?

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Did they coexist? We know they were there

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roughly at the same time.

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And some of the researchers I
talked to all seem to think,

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it’s almost hard to believe

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that they couldn’t have
seen each other, given

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how many fossils are at
so many different sites.

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But you can’t absolutely prove that

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unless you find them intertwined

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or you have DNA to show that they made it.

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And we don’t have DNA that
early yet for Hominins.

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– The thing that was also
interesting to me is that,

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you know, you mentioned this,

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these aren’t new research sites.

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People have been looking in
these places for a while,

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but there’s sort of new
findings coming out of them.

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What happened that helped people kind

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of make so much progress? Recently,

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– Robert Broom frowned Crom
Dry in the 1930s, 1938.

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He’d been working at Stir Fontaine

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and a schoolboy found
some teeth at another site

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and he realized they
didn’t come from there.

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And then he had the boy show
him where he found them,

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and it turned out it was
Crom Drive Farm, which is

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where we actually stayed

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and where Jose Brock is working
today, he went there in 2002

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and he started re
excavating some of the sites

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that had been looked at in the
interim, found the old pits

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because there were old
Coca-Cola cans in the pits.

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He was able to discover where
exactly the older fossils

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were a dozen years.

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He didn’t find a single helmet

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and he was beginning to
think about going to Mongolia

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to look for fossils instead,

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when one day sitting in the
sediments, a tooth fell from

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above in the wall where he was
working, hit him on the thigh

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and it turned out it was
a tooth from early homo.

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Then he found more
fossils of this baby homo,

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and a few months later he
found the paranthropus.

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So he was in the same
layer right next to it.

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So that was terribly exciting.

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Then more recently, he’s found something

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that looks like a skull.

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It’s a beautiful skull that
maybe from Ostro Pitus all in

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the same area that has started
happening in the mid 2015,

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somewhere in there, 2014.

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Since then, people at
Drand found new fossils

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and in addition to finding
new fossils, dating methods

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and other methods of analysis
have gotten more sophisticated

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to help them look at the
riddle of coexistence.

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– What are some of the
methods that have improved?

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How have they helped this
discovery process along?

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– One of the key methods
was Robin Pickering,

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who’s at the University of Cape
Town, has been using uranium

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and lead dating, which
is radiometric dating

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to date the minerals in the layers

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to date those layers precisely.

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And if she can find the layers
above and below a fossil

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and feel pretty reliably that
it’s in the proper context,

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she can get a pretty
good ballpark of dates.

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Then Andy Harry’s from
Latrobe University can come in

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and date the reversals in
the paleomagnetic field.

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She will give him a window of time

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and he can figure out exactly

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and much more precisely when
that layer was laid down.

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So those methods together, along

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with some other emerging methods,

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which are a little more controversial,

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have helped research begin

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to really get a better handle on dates.

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And the sites I’m writing
about are all in about the

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2 million year ballpark.

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Meanwhile, there are other methods.

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00:09:55,530 –> 00:09:58,500
You can look at the isotopes
and the teeth to look at diet

240
00:09:58,500 –> 00:10:00,450
because not only do we wanna
know if they were there at the

241
00:10:00,450 –> 00:10:02,850
same time, but you wanna
know, were they competing?

242
00:10:02,850 –> 00:10:04,440
– Yeah, what do we know about

243
00:10:04,440 –> 00:10:06,210
how they divided up the landscape

244
00:10:06,210 –> 00:10:08,220
and the food resources
that were available.

245
00:10:08,220 –> 00:10:10,590
– What’s really interesting
is researchers have a long

246
00:10:10,590 –> 00:10:11,850
thought when you look at the anatomy

247
00:10:11,850 –> 00:10:13,320
of paranthropus versus homo,

248
00:10:13,320 –> 00:10:16,230
it’s got this gigantic humongous jaws

249
00:10:16,230 –> 00:10:18,780
and big robust skull with a crest on top

250
00:10:18,780 –> 00:10:20,820
so the jaw muscles can attach up there.

251
00:10:20,820 –> 00:10:24,120
So researchers thought it must
be eating a hard diet of nuts

252
00:10:24,120 –> 00:10:27,930
and difficult things to chew
tubers, things like that.

253
00:10:27,930 –> 00:10:29,340
And that was how it adapted.

254
00:10:29,340 –> 00:10:32,850
And meanwhile, maybe early
Como was using stone tools more

255
00:10:32,850 –> 00:10:35,160
and maybe eating more meat, a softer diet.

256
00:10:35,160 –> 00:10:37,560
However, it’s not as simple as that.

257
00:10:37,560 –> 00:10:41,580
There was a new study by Jose
Bragga and his colleague Dr.

258
00:10:41,580 –> 00:10:44,580
Balter, who looked Atium isotopes

259
00:10:44,580 –> 00:10:47,160
and other researchers have
looked at other aspects of diet

260
00:10:47,160 –> 00:10:49,380
and they see that philanthropists
actually had a broader

261
00:10:49,380 –> 00:10:52,080
diet that people thought it
wasn’t quite such a specialist.

262
00:10:52,080 –> 00:10:56,580
Maybe that robust jaw was an
adaptation for hard times.

263
00:10:56,580 –> 00:10:58,530
You know, when there wasn’t
much food around, maybe

264
00:10:58,530 –> 00:11:00,270
that jaw helped it survive.

265
00:11:00,270 –> 00:11:02,100
Meanwhile, early homeless,

266
00:11:02,100 –> 00:11:04,740
quite a generalist probably
eating figs and plants too,

267
00:11:04,740 –> 00:11:06,690
but some more meat at that point.

268
00:11:06,690 –> 00:11:08,700
It may be scavenging, not hunting a lot.

269
00:11:08,700 –> 00:11:11,970
We don’t know, right? This
is early days for butchering.

270
00:11:11,970 –> 00:11:14,400
We don’t know if it’s
got fire or cooking yet.

271
00:11:14,400 –> 00:11:16,740
This is awfully early for that.
That probably came in later.

272
00:11:17,760 –> 00:11:19,620
This was also a journalist
eating a lot of plants

273
00:11:19,620 –> 00:11:21,660
and occasion probably meet when it could.

274
00:11:21,660 –> 00:11:24,900
The other mystery in all this
is that stone tools appear

275
00:11:24,900 –> 00:11:28,740
before this in East Africa, at
least 2.7 million years ago,

276
00:11:28,740 –> 00:11:32,010
maybe as early as 3.3
million years ago, which,

277
00:11:32,010 –> 00:11:33,600
and sometimes found in association

278
00:11:33,600 –> 00:11:36,060
with opus a different species.

279
00:11:36,060 –> 00:11:39,000
So this suggests that more
than one of these types

280
00:11:39,000 –> 00:11:40,830
of hominins is already using stone tools

281
00:11:40,830 –> 00:11:44,220
to process their food or butcher
whatever they were doing.

282
00:11:44,220 –> 00:11:48,090
So diet may not be the key

283
00:11:48,090 –> 00:11:49,770
to why they are different.

284
00:11:49,770 –> 00:11:53,680
And so Jose and people
at Drin, Gary Schwartz

285
00:11:53,680 –> 00:11:56,680
and others have been looking,
especially at the infants.

286
00:11:56,680 –> 00:11:58,690
There are lots of infants at these sites,

287
00:11:58,690 –> 00:12:00,400
which is really, really interesting.

288
00:12:00,400 –> 00:12:03,190
But there are a lot more
paranthropus infants that have died

289
00:12:03,190 –> 00:12:06,400
and ended up in these sites
than there are homo in ratio

290
00:12:06,400 –> 00:12:08,650
to the adult fossils they find.

291
00:12:08,650 –> 00:12:11,350
And so question is, is that real?

292
00:12:11,350 –> 00:12:13,780
Is there a lot more infant
mortality in Paranthropus?

293
00:12:13,780 –> 00:12:15,280
If that’s true,

294
00:12:15,280 –> 00:12:18,310
what is Paranthropus doing
differently from early homo

295
00:12:18,310 –> 00:12:20,680
that is leading to so many infants dying?

296
00:12:20,680 –> 00:12:25,680
We do know that all these hominin, ticus,

297
00:12:25,690 –> 00:12:28,600
paranthropus and early homo
are weaning their infants

298
00:12:28,600 –> 00:12:31,090
earlier than chimps wean theirs.

299
00:12:31,090 –> 00:12:33,700
Chimps nurse their infants
for four years or so.

300
00:12:33,700 –> 00:12:36,550
So that means mothers
can’t have as many babies

301
00:12:36,550 –> 00:12:38,800
’cause of their nursing one,
they can’t have another.

302
00:12:38,800 –> 00:12:41,110
And the infants are
dependent for a long time.

303
00:12:41,110 –> 00:12:43,000
What’s happening with
these hominins is they’re

304
00:12:43,000 –> 00:12:44,050
weaning their infants earlier.

305
00:12:44,050 –> 00:12:45,940
They can tell from the
isotopes in their teeth

306
00:12:45,940 –> 00:12:47,710
and the mark growth lines.

307
00:12:47,710 –> 00:12:49,810
And so that’s a strategy
perhaps when there’s lots

308
00:12:49,810 –> 00:12:51,970
of predation pressure, a
lot of horrible predators,

309
00:12:51,970 –> 00:12:54,790
big saber tooth tigers, all
sorts of things were around.

310
00:12:54,790 –> 00:12:57,370
So maybe they’re producing
more babies faster,

311
00:12:57,370 –> 00:13:01,330
but somehow early homo babies
may be surviving better.

312
00:13:01,330 –> 00:13:03,160
There’s some interesting
hypotheses out there

313
00:13:03,160 –> 00:13:05,500
that are not proven yet that
are really interesting ideas

314
00:13:05,500 –> 00:13:09,520
and that is that maybe homo
had a social strategy already,

315
00:13:09,520 –> 00:13:12,100
their weaning maybe a little
later, they haven’t proven this

316
00:13:12,100 –> 00:13:14,230
yet, but they’re seeing signs of this.

317
00:13:14,230 –> 00:13:17,170
And perhaps the social group was able

318
00:13:17,170 –> 00:13:20,500
to provision the mother
longer to help take care

319
00:13:20,500 –> 00:13:23,260
of the infants better, to escape predators

320
00:13:23,260 –> 00:13:25,420
to survive on the landscape.

321
00:13:25,420 –> 00:13:29,110
We know eventually that
homoerectus and early ho

322
00:13:29,110 –> 00:13:30,400
or somewhere in human evolution

323
00:13:30,400 –> 00:13:32,140
before homo sapiens,

324
00:13:32,140 –> 00:13:34,810
we ended up developing
a life history strategy

325
00:13:34,810 –> 00:13:37,780
where we took longer to
grow up where our children

326
00:13:37,780 –> 00:13:40,210
had a longer childhood, which allowed

327
00:13:40,210 –> 00:13:41,800
for more social learning.

328
00:13:41,800 –> 00:13:44,260
We had bigger brains and allowed
for more social learning.

329
00:13:44,260 –> 00:13:45,970
So we were more successful as adults

330
00:13:45,970 –> 00:13:47,650
and more successful as parents

331
00:13:47,650 –> 00:13:50,230
and more of our offspring survived.

332
00:13:50,230 –> 00:13:52,330
The big mystery is when did that kick you?

333
00:13:52,330 –> 00:13:53,380
When did Homo do that?

334
00:13:53,380 –> 00:13:54,970
And Jose Bragga

335
00:13:54,970 –> 00:13:57,910
and some others think maybe
they’ll get clues this early on

336
00:13:57,910 –> 00:14:01,480
at these sites as Jose
Bragga says, these infants

337
00:14:01,480 –> 00:14:04,030
as the babies in the cradle
that may offer a window

338
00:14:04,030 –> 00:14:06,970
to the emergence of a deeply
human kind of cooperation

339
00:14:06,970 –> 00:14:08,740
and life history strategy.

340
00:14:08,740 –> 00:14:12,250
– What do we know about why
this particular place is

341
00:14:12,250 –> 00:14:14,710
where all these prominence
would’ve shown up?

342
00:14:14,710 –> 00:14:16,330
– There was water everywhere.

343
00:14:16,330 –> 00:14:19,930
So there was a beautiful valley
with lush trees, fig trees,

344
00:14:19,930 –> 00:14:22,810
things to eat, places they
could build their sleepiness.

345
00:14:22,810 –> 00:14:26,080
And the caves nearby
also had water in them.

346
00:14:26,080 –> 00:14:27,790
When you have a cave
system, this car system

347
00:14:27,790 –> 00:14:29,470
of the caves, there’s lots of water.

348
00:14:29,470 –> 00:14:31,300
So in otherwise arid landscape,

349
00:14:31,300 –> 00:14:32,620
probably they were following the water

350
00:14:32,620 –> 00:14:34,210
and it brought them into the area.

351
00:14:34,210 –> 00:14:35,320
They ranged beyond it.

352
00:14:35,320 –> 00:14:36,640
They were probably nomadic

353
00:14:36,640 –> 00:14:40,120
as hunter gatherers are today
moving across the landscape.

354
00:14:40,120 –> 00:14:43,510
But they would end up there
probably in dry times,

355
00:14:43,510 –> 00:14:45,040
especially plus this is

356
00:14:45,040 –> 00:14:46,630
where they were beautifully preserved.

357
00:14:46,630 –> 00:14:48,040
That’s the other part of this.

358
00:14:48,040 –> 00:14:51,110
It’s not just, you know, they
weren’t just in the caves,

359
00:14:51,110 –> 00:14:54,050
but the caves are this car system.

360
00:14:54,050 –> 00:14:55,160
They get buried.

361
00:14:55,160 –> 00:14:56,510
The water that’s trickling in,

362
00:14:56,510 –> 00:15:00,590
that draws ’em there also
turns the sediments into almost

363
00:15:00,590 –> 00:15:02,000
like the cement like brecher.

364
00:15:02,000 –> 00:15:03,830
And it covers the fossils in ways

365
00:15:03,830 –> 00:15:05,450
that preserves them beautifully.

366
00:15:05,450 –> 00:15:09,170
So you have an incredible
graveyard basically

367
00:15:09,170 –> 00:15:10,760
preserving fossils there.

368
00:15:10,760 –> 00:15:12,710
The hominins were
elsewhere on the landscape,

369
00:15:12,710 –> 00:15:14,870
but this is where they’re
beautifully preserved.

370
00:15:14,870 –> 00:15:17,330
– Could you maybe just
zoom out a little bit

371
00:15:17,330 –> 00:15:20,810
and just talk about how does
this potential coexistence

372
00:15:20,810 –> 00:15:23,600
story, how does it mesh or

373
00:15:23,600 –> 00:15:25,910
or not mesh with what we’ve always sort

374
00:15:25,910 –> 00:15:28,520
of historically thought
about human evolution?

375
00:15:28,520 –> 00:15:31,220
– So a long time ago, Ernst
Mayer was a famous evolutionary

376
00:15:31,220 –> 00:15:33,410
biologist who proposed this notion

377
00:15:33,410 –> 00:15:35,390
that hominins human evolution was special.

378
00:15:35,390 –> 00:15:37,220
We weren’t like other aids
that there was one kind

379
00:15:37,220 –> 00:15:40,190
of hominin at a time
evolving into another.

380
00:15:40,190 –> 00:15:42,320
And it was sort of this
wonderful, straight, neat line

381
00:15:42,320 –> 00:15:45,470
of descent from early OSUs

382
00:15:45,470 –> 00:15:48,200
to early homo to us.

383
00:15:48,200 –> 00:15:49,340
But even he started

384
00:15:49,340 –> 00:15:53,060
to disbelieve this probably
in the seventies when we began

385
00:15:53,060 –> 00:15:55,130
to find even in East Africa.

386
00:15:55,130 –> 00:15:58,880
By then at gorge researchers
found paranthropus

387
00:15:58,880 –> 00:16:02,000
and homo near each other
in similar segments,

388
00:16:02,000 –> 00:16:03,350
roughly dated at the same time.

389
00:16:03,350 –> 00:16:05,990
So we began to realize we were
not the only hominid on the

390
00:16:05,990 –> 00:16:08,540
landscape, but the question was, was

391
00:16:08,540 –> 00:16:10,370
that at the same time or not?

392
00:16:10,370 –> 00:16:12,410
And then I think the big breakthrough

393
00:16:12,410 –> 00:16:14,690
that has made a huge difference
in people’s understanding

394
00:16:14,690 –> 00:16:16,070
of human evolution has been

395
00:16:16,070 –> 00:16:19,730
with the ancient DNA revolution
in the last 15 years.

396
00:16:19,730 –> 00:16:21,590
We found that we interbred with Neals,

397
00:16:21,590 –> 00:16:23,120
as you said in the beginning,

398
00:16:23,120 –> 00:16:26,210
and also these other kinds
of hominins called dead sos.

399
00:16:26,210 –> 00:16:27,590
We have DNA from them as well.

400
00:16:27,590 –> 00:16:30,290
They were cousins of
Neals that lived in Asia.

401
00:16:30,290 –> 00:16:33,740
So we know that we, our
answers homo sapiens br

402
00:16:33,740 –> 00:16:36,170
with anything else it
could the other hominin.

403
00:16:36,170 –> 00:16:38,510
And they actually had
offspring that survived

404
00:16:38,510 –> 00:16:42,500
because we have this percentage
of DNA, this suggested

405
00:16:42,500 –> 00:16:44,540
that this was a human strategy.

406
00:16:44,540 –> 00:16:47,120
And it’s hard to believe
that we didn’t do this all

407
00:16:47,120 –> 00:16:50,120
through human evolution because
all other rapes do this.

408
00:16:50,120 –> 00:16:52,490
You’ve got inner breeding
between different species

409
00:16:52,490 –> 00:16:55,700
of orangutans in the wild and in the zoos.

410
00:16:55,700 –> 00:16:58,520
You’ve got it between
subspecies of chimpanzees,

411
00:16:58,520 –> 00:17:00,800
even though they have more
genetic variation than we

412
00:17:00,800 –> 00:17:02,180
do as a species.

413
00:17:02,180 –> 00:17:04,580
I think most researchers
think, yes, we did coexist

414
00:17:04,580 –> 00:17:07,130
with other hominins,
we probably interbred.

415
00:17:07,130 –> 00:17:09,200
But how do you show that?
How do you prove it?

416
00:17:09,200 –> 00:17:11,210
That’s why these fossil
sites are so interesting

417
00:17:11,210 –> 00:17:14,300
because they’re in such a
small area of time and space.

418
00:17:14,300 –> 00:17:16,400
And so if there’s any place
that’s promising for this,

419
00:17:16,400 –> 00:17:17,870
this is one of the sites.

420
00:17:17,870 –> 00:17:19,190
– Well, thank you so much, Ann.

421
00:17:19,190 –> 00:17:21,260
It’s always so much fun to hear from you

422
00:17:21,260 –> 00:17:24,260
and hear how excited you are
about these new findings.

423
00:17:24,260 –> 00:17:26,480
– It’s the best beat
of all human evolution.

424
00:17:28,040 –> 00:17:30,740
– Anne Gibbons is a contributing
correspondent at science.

425
00:17:30,740 –> 00:17:32,870
You can find a link to
the story we discussed at

426
00:17:32,870 –> 00:17:34,910
science.org/podcast.

427
00:17:41,390 –> 00:17:43,940
– The second story from
the science podcast is a

428
00:17:43,940 –> 00:17:47,300
conversation with
anthropologist Melanie Beasley

429
00:17:47,300 –> 00:17:48,410
about a surprising

430
00:17:48,410 –> 00:17:53,410
and kind of gross new discovery
about what Neanderthals ate.

431
00:17:53,760 –> 00:17:57,630
Every episode of their
podcast has segments like this

432
00:17:57,630 –> 00:18:00,780
interviewing scientists about
their brand new research.

433
00:18:00,780 –> 00:18:03,960
It’s a great way to stay
informed about all kinds

434
00:18:03,960 –> 00:18:06,030
of fascinating science.

435
00:18:06,030 –> 00:18:07,950
Here’s host Crespi.

436
00:18:07,950 –> 00:18:10,680
– Teeth and bones contain isotopes

437
00:18:10,680 –> 00:18:13,200
that tell us something
about what someone ate

438
00:18:13,200 –> 00:18:14,640
during their lifetime.

439
00:18:14,640 –> 00:18:16,800
I first encountered this idea when talking

440
00:18:16,800 –> 00:18:19,740
with a researcher about
the fall of the war.

441
00:18:19,740 –> 00:18:24,510
People in Peru, around 800
ce, their bones toe to tail

442
00:18:24,510 –> 00:18:27,960
of violence and limited food.

443
00:18:27,960 –> 00:18:32,130
The isotopic ratios in bones
also place animals on different

444
00:18:32,130 –> 00:18:33,720
trophic levels.

445
00:18:33,720 –> 00:18:36,870
Are they eating mainly
plants, mainly animals?

446
00:18:36,870 –> 00:18:39,030
Where on the food web are they?

447
00:18:39,030 –> 00:18:42,960
When this question was asked
about Neanderthals, they read

448
00:18:42,960 –> 00:18:45,150
as hyper carnivores.

449
00:18:45,150 –> 00:18:48,240
Their isotope ratios made
them look like lions,

450
00:18:48,240 –> 00:18:50,730
more meat intents than lions.

451
00:18:50,730 –> 00:18:52,950
But these cousins of ours have similar

452
00:18:52,950 –> 00:18:54,600
digestive systems to us.

453
00:18:54,600 –> 00:18:57,270
They’re not like hyenas anthropologists.

454
00:18:57,270 –> 00:19:00,330
Melanie Beasley wrote In
Science advances about another

455
00:19:00,330 –> 00:19:03,270
possible cause of these
surprising numbers,

456
00:19:03,270 –> 00:19:06,030
Neanderthals could be eating fly larvae

457
00:19:06,030 –> 00:19:08,010
from petrifying meat.

458
00:19:08,010 –> 00:19:11,100
Hi Melanie, welcome to
science podcast. Hi, thank

459
00:19:11,100 –> 00:19:12,600
– You so much for having me.

460
00:19:12,600 –> 00:19:15,900
– I think to get to the
meat of this issue, the meat

461
00:19:15,900 –> 00:19:19,050
of the issue, we really need
to talk about the isotopes.

462
00:19:19,050 –> 00:19:22,050
Just kind of a quick overview of

463
00:19:22,050 –> 00:19:25,260
what isotopes we’re looking
at, what this number is,

464
00:19:25,260 –> 00:19:26,580
this level is, and then we’ll kind

465
00:19:26,580 –> 00:19:28,680
of keep it simple from then on.

466
00:19:28,680 –> 00:19:29,850
But let’s just dive into that real

467
00:19:29,850 –> 00:19:30,850
– Quick.

468
00:19:30,850 –> 00:19:32,790
The easy way to think about isotopes

469
00:19:32,790 –> 00:19:34,110
is you are what you eat.

470
00:19:34,110 –> 00:19:36,180
And so all of the foods that you eat

471
00:19:36,180 –> 00:19:39,720
and consume, they have nitrogen

472
00:19:39,720 –> 00:19:41,790
and carbon as well as other elements.

473
00:19:41,790 –> 00:19:43,410
But what we mainly focus on

474
00:19:43,410 –> 00:19:46,350
with diet is nitrogen and carbon.

475
00:19:46,350 –> 00:19:49,200
And when you look at this
in the bone collagen,

476
00:19:49,200 –> 00:19:53,010
so the organic protein kind
of component of your bone,

477
00:19:53,010 –> 00:19:54,900
that’s what it’s doing is
it’s giving you an idea of

478
00:19:54,900 –> 00:19:57,420
what proteins are being consumed

479
00:19:57,420 –> 00:20:00,990
by whatever you’re
analyzing, be it a deer,

480
00:20:00,990 –> 00:20:03,780
be it a neanderthal modern human.

481
00:20:03,780 –> 00:20:08,130
And so the nitrogen comes in
two different isotope forms.

482
00:20:08,130 –> 00:20:10,830
There’s the heavy nitrogen, the N 15,

483
00:20:10,830 –> 00:20:13,890
that’s the very rare
isotope form of nitrogen.

484
00:20:13,890 –> 00:20:16,110
And then there’s the
abundant light isotope,

485
00:20:16,110 –> 00:20:18,090
which is nitrogen 14.

486
00:20:18,090 –> 00:20:21,030
And so the delta N 15 value

487
00:20:21,030 –> 00:20:24,900
that we’re looking at is
actually a ratio of N 15

488
00:20:24,900 –> 00:20:27,630
to N 14 compared to a standard.

489
00:20:27,630 –> 00:20:31,650
And so all that we’re looking
at in these values is how much

490
00:20:31,650 –> 00:20:36,180
of that rare to abundant isotope is there?

491
00:20:36,180 –> 00:20:39,510
And it turns out during decomposition,

492
00:20:39,510 –> 00:20:41,880
as the body breaks down, then

493
00:20:41,880 –> 00:20:46,260
what you get is the light
isotope will be the first isotope

494
00:20:46,260 –> 00:20:48,700
to react in these chemical reactions

495
00:20:48,700 –> 00:20:51,640
that are releasing these
volatile compounds.

496
00:20:51,640 –> 00:20:53,740
And so that means that the muscle,

497
00:20:53,740 –> 00:20:56,680
the body retains the heavier isotope

498
00:20:56,680 –> 00:20:58,060
compared to the light isotopes.

499
00:20:58,060 –> 00:21:02,470
You get this change in these
isotope ratios of the heavy

500
00:21:02,470 –> 00:21:04,300
to the light isotope.

501
00:21:04,300 –> 00:21:07,600
And over time, as you
continue to lose more of

502
00:21:07,600 –> 00:21:09,640
that light isotope faster,

503
00:21:09,640 –> 00:21:12,760
’cause that’s reacting faster
in that chemical reaction,

504
00:21:12,760 –> 00:21:15,970
you then get a higher and
higher delta N 15 value.

505
00:21:15,970 –> 00:21:18,640
– How does that link in
with what you’re eating?

506
00:21:18,640 –> 00:21:20,740
Like say saying you know you ate a lot

507
00:21:20,740 –> 00:21:24,970
of meat versus you are more
of a herbivorous animal?

508
00:21:24,970 –> 00:21:27,700
– I work in California
as a bio archeologist,

509
00:21:27,700 –> 00:21:32,170
and so I like to use the deer
example where you have grass

510
00:21:32,170 –> 00:21:34,810
that’s gonna have a
starting nitrogen value.

511
00:21:34,810 –> 00:21:36,580
A deer eats the grass

512
00:21:36,580 –> 00:21:39,280
that’s gonna have a trophic level offset.

513
00:21:39,280 –> 00:21:44,020
So a standard kind of value
that is offset between the food

514
00:21:44,020 –> 00:21:46,900
that you’re eating and the
animal that is consuming it.

515
00:21:46,900 –> 00:21:49,450
And so that would be your herbivore value

516
00:21:49,450 –> 00:21:51,400
or your primary consumer.

517
00:21:51,400 –> 00:21:55,270
Then in the trophic food web,
if a carnivore eats that deer,

518
00:21:55,270 –> 00:21:58,930
so say a wolf comes along,
eats that deer, it’s going

519
00:21:58,930 –> 00:22:01,150
to have that same offset,

520
00:22:01,150 –> 00:22:03,310
but now is that secondary consumer

521
00:22:03,310 –> 00:22:05,770
so you’re gonna get an even higher value.

522
00:22:05,770 –> 00:22:08,650
And so what’s interesting
about the Neanderthals is when

523
00:22:08,650 –> 00:22:12,100
this first research was done in the 1990s

524
00:22:12,100 –> 00:22:14,530
and they were extracting the bone collagen

525
00:22:14,530 –> 00:22:18,010
and able to isolate the
nitrogen isotope values for

526
00:22:18,010 –> 00:22:19,480
what they originally found is

527
00:22:19,480 –> 00:22:22,630
that Neanderthals were at
the top of the food wet.

528
00:22:22,630 –> 00:22:24,250
They were above the carnivores.

529
00:22:24,250 –> 00:22:25,570
And that’s where this narrative

530
00:22:25,570 –> 00:22:29,230
of hyper carnivore came
from is they’ve got nitrogen

531
00:22:29,230 –> 00:22:30,370
values above carnivores.

532
00:22:30,370 –> 00:22:32,680
They must be doing this
as a hyper carnivore,

533
00:22:32,680 –> 00:22:35,080
– They must be eating tigers,
– Whatever.

534
00:22:35,080 –> 00:22:37,780
Exactly. But of course that’s not

535
00:22:37,780 –> 00:22:40,390
what they were consuming
based on the bone remains

536
00:22:40,390 –> 00:22:41,920
that were at these
sites, we knew they were

537
00:22:41,920 –> 00:22:43,540
eating herbivores.

538
00:22:43,540 –> 00:22:46,240
So it was always this
question of like, okay,

539
00:22:46,240 –> 00:22:47,800
well are they just eating more meat?

540
00:22:47,800 –> 00:22:50,440
Is that where this hyper
carnivore is coming from?

541
00:22:50,440 –> 00:22:52,030
– Is that what bones were around?

542
00:22:52,030 –> 00:22:54,430
Is that what made you say
this probably isn’t right?

543
00:22:54,430 –> 00:22:56,710
That this has to be some other reason

544
00:22:56,710 –> 00:22:59,230
for their nitrogen values
to be where they’re at. The

545
00:22:59,230 –> 00:23:03,820
– Pushback that has always
been there in thinking about

546
00:23:03,820 –> 00:23:06,910
these high nitrogen values is that we know

547
00:23:06,910 –> 00:23:09,400
that Neanderthals are a hominin.

548
00:23:09,400 –> 00:23:11,350
Hominins are primates.

549
00:23:11,350 –> 00:23:14,710
We have evolved as a primate, digestive

550
00:23:14,710 –> 00:23:16,480
and metabolic system.

551
00:23:16,480 –> 00:23:19,990
And so we aren’t designed evolutionarily

552
00:23:19,990 –> 00:23:22,450
to just be primarily eating flesh.

553
00:23:22,450 –> 00:23:23,800
We aren’t a carnivore.

554
00:23:23,800 –> 00:23:26,050
So there are limits to
that amount of protein

555
00:23:26,050 –> 00:23:27,880
that we can consume.

556
00:23:27,880 –> 00:23:31,060
– I thought this was so
interesting, the idea

557
00:23:31,060 –> 00:23:33,220
that there is this
almost like a hard limit.

558
00:23:33,220 –> 00:23:36,790
Like if you’re eating
but more than 300 grams

559
00:23:36,790 –> 00:23:40,030
of meat a day, you’re
gonna overwhelm your liver.

560
00:23:40,030 –> 00:23:41,860
You are, you’re gonna not be able to deal

561
00:23:41,860 –> 00:23:43,060
with all that nitrogen.

562
00:23:43,060 –> 00:23:45,830
– That’s the amazing part is this is known

563
00:23:45,830 –> 00:23:48,140
by these historic explorers.

564
00:23:48,140 –> 00:23:50,990
Like think about these
explorers coming across

565
00:23:50,990 –> 00:23:52,280
North America.

566
00:23:52,280 –> 00:23:54,740
They would actually starve
what was referred to

567
00:23:54,740 –> 00:23:56,450
as rabbit starvation

568
00:23:56,450 –> 00:23:59,270
because they would have
all of the meat protein

569
00:23:59,270 –> 00:24:02,060
that they could eat, that they
wouldn’t have carbohydrates.

570
00:24:02,060 –> 00:24:04,250
They’d be hunting lean game meat.

571
00:24:04,250 –> 00:24:07,790
So they wouldn’t be eating those
fatty portions necessarily,

572
00:24:07,790 –> 00:24:08,990
and they would starve.

573
00:24:08,990 –> 00:24:11,480
– You talk about what indigenous
populations were doing at

574
00:24:11,480 –> 00:24:13,130
that time and they’re like,

575
00:24:13,130 –> 00:24:15,770
why are you eating the leg muscles?

576
00:24:15,770 –> 00:24:18,740
We eat the fat and the brain.

577
00:24:18,740 –> 00:24:20,300
They went for the fatty stuff

578
00:24:20,300 –> 00:24:22,100
because they had figured out over time

579
00:24:22,100 –> 00:24:25,340
that you cannot just eat
like this nitrogen rich,

580
00:24:25,340 –> 00:24:27,050
straight up amino acid.

581
00:24:27,050 –> 00:24:29,060
Absolutely and survive.

582
00:24:29,060 –> 00:24:31,850
– We think about, you know,
Sunday roast for dinner.

583
00:24:31,850 –> 00:24:34,040
That’s not what early hominins

584
00:24:34,040 –> 00:24:36,500
and prehistoric indigenous
groups were doing.

585
00:24:36,500 –> 00:24:38,600
They were going for the fatty bits.

586
00:24:38,600 –> 00:24:40,250
– One other thing that came out of

587
00:24:40,250 –> 00:24:43,910
that historical perspective
was that you know,

588
00:24:43,910 –> 00:24:45,560
and you have these quotes all

589
00:24:45,560 –> 00:24:48,800
– Collected and curated by
John Smith, my co-author.

590
00:24:48,800 –> 00:24:51,770
He is an absolute biblio file

591
00:24:51,770 –> 00:24:56,360
of collecting this just
rich ethno historic quotes

592
00:24:56,360 –> 00:24:58,400
that span the world.

593
00:24:58,400 –> 00:25:00,020
I would love it if you’d read one of

594
00:25:00,020 –> 00:25:01,340
– The quotes from the paper.

595
00:25:01,340 –> 00:25:03,140
– Oh, I’ll read the first one, the intro

596
00:25:03,140 –> 00:25:05,240
because that’s my absolute favorite.

597
00:25:05,240 –> 00:25:07,670
Okay. The meat was green with age,

598
00:25:07,670 –> 00:25:09,740
and when we made a cut in it,

599
00:25:09,740 –> 00:25:11,810
it was like the bursting of a boil.

600
00:25:11,810 –> 00:25:14,930
So full of great white maggots was it?

601
00:25:14,930 –> 00:25:18,020
To my horror, my companion
scooped out handfuls

602
00:25:18,020 –> 00:25:21,680
of the crawling things and
ate them with evident relish.

603
00:25:21,680 –> 00:25:23,180
I criticized their taste,

604
00:25:23,180 –> 00:25:28,180
but they said not illogically
you yourself like caribou meat

605
00:25:28,250 –> 00:25:31,520
and what are these maggots
but live caribou meat.

606
00:25:31,520 –> 00:25:34,340
They taste just the same as the meat

607
00:25:34,340 –> 00:25:36,410
and are refreshing to the mouth.

608
00:25:36,410 –> 00:25:39,170
– It’s not like it was only in hard times

609
00:25:39,170 –> 00:25:41,510
that they wanted this resource.

610
00:25:41,510 –> 00:25:44,600
This was something they actually,
I wouldn’t say cultivated,

611
00:25:44,600 –> 00:25:48,050
but it was not accidental
with they encountered maggots.

612
00:25:48,050 –> 00:25:50,270
– That is correct. It’s
definitely not accidental.

613
00:25:50,270 –> 00:25:51,410
I actually tried

614
00:25:51,410 –> 00:25:53,960
to put the word cultivated
in the paper. Yeah, you

615
00:25:53,960 –> 00:25:55,070
– Gotta get in trouble.

616
00:25:55,070 –> 00:25:57,620
– My co-authors were like,
that’s pushing it a little far.

617
00:25:57,620 –> 00:25:59,360
You gotta gotta reign that in.

618
00:25:59,360 –> 00:26:03,170
But in my mind, you know, in Neanderthal,

619
00:26:03,170 –> 00:26:05,210
these prehistoric foraging groups,

620
00:26:05,210 –> 00:26:07,340
early anatomically modern humans,

621
00:26:07,340 –> 00:26:09,080
they would’ve quickly observed

622
00:26:09,080 –> 00:26:12,350
that these maggot masses
would be associated

623
00:26:12,350 –> 00:26:15,830
with a butchered decomposing carcass.

624
00:26:15,830 –> 00:26:17,570
So even if they hunted

625
00:26:17,570 –> 00:26:20,150
and took those choice pieces first,

626
00:26:20,150 –> 00:26:23,510
they might not have taken the
entire carcass back with them

627
00:26:23,510 –> 00:26:26,540
to wherever they were storing
or consuming the food.

628
00:26:26,540 –> 00:26:30,170
But I bet you that they were
like, ah, that carcass is there

629
00:26:30,170 –> 00:26:32,030
and I’m gonna come back in a week or two

630
00:26:32,030 –> 00:26:36,530
and I’m gonna be able to
scoop up those fatty tasty

631
00:26:36,530 –> 00:26:40,430
maggots and just get a
quick energetic treat

632
00:26:40,430 –> 00:26:42,080
by popping that in my mouth.

633
00:26:42,080 –> 00:26:45,090
– Do we have any evidence
that they were storing

634
00:26:45,090 –> 00:26:46,950
meat for later?

635
00:26:46,950 –> 00:26:49,920
– I don’t know

636
00:26:49,920 –> 00:26:54,920
that we have specific
evidence of storage of meat.

637
00:26:54,930 –> 00:26:58,860
They were not eating meat like
a carnivore was eating meat.

638
00:26:58,860 –> 00:27:03,150
They were doing something to
it, storing it, cooking it,

639
00:27:03,150 –> 00:27:07,860
drying it, doing some sort
of cultural processing of

640
00:27:07,860 –> 00:27:10,890
that food like humans do.

641
00:27:10,890 –> 00:27:12,510
And that that is what we’re seeing

642
00:27:12,510 –> 00:27:15,390
with these high trophic values that aren’t

643
00:27:15,390 –> 00:27:16,830
what are expected.

644
00:27:16,830 –> 00:27:19,260
And of course you can’t
prevent the flies from getting

645
00:27:19,260 –> 00:27:21,900
there, so you can’t get
away from those maggots.

646
00:27:21,900 –> 00:27:26,730
And so that is probably the
maggots are getting in there.

647
00:27:26,730 –> 00:27:29,850
You’re getting that additive
food on that paleo menu,

648
00:27:29,850 –> 00:27:32,400
which is also raising the nitrogen value.

649
00:27:32,400 –> 00:27:35,070
– Yeah, let’s get into that.
The paper takes us a step in

650
00:27:35,070 –> 00:27:38,580
the direction is seeing if we
can detect intentional maggot

651
00:27:38,580 –> 00:27:40,230
eating in the inter tunnels.

652
00:27:40,230 –> 00:27:41,460
Step one, find out

653
00:27:41,460 –> 00:27:46,200
how much fly larva might
influence the nitrogen levels.

654
00:27:46,200 –> 00:27:48,990
You can do this by testing a tissue,

655
00:27:48,990 –> 00:27:51,540
then testing the petrifying tissue

656
00:27:51,540 –> 00:27:54,540
and then testing the
larva after they eat it.

657
00:27:54,540 –> 00:27:57,660
Before we go into those like
steps of your experiment,

658
00:27:57,660 –> 00:28:00,480
you used human tissue to do this.

659
00:28:00,480 –> 00:28:02,970
Can you talk a little bit about
why you decided to do that?

660
00:28:02,970 –> 00:28:04,170
It’s really more of a story

661
00:28:04,170 –> 00:28:07,680
– Than anything else of
everything aligning perfectly.

662
00:28:07,680 –> 00:28:10,050
John Beth was doing this research,

663
00:28:10,050 –> 00:28:13,410
his 2017 paper proposing putrid meat

664
00:28:13,410 –> 00:28:16,200
and he came to gave a
talk at uc, San Diego,

665
00:28:16,200 –> 00:28:18,300
and I went up to him afterwards
and I was like, John,

666
00:28:18,300 –> 00:28:21,360
I’m applying to a postdoc
at University of Tennessee

667
00:28:21,360 –> 00:28:23,490
to the forensic anthropology center

668
00:28:23,490 –> 00:28:26,490
and do isotope experimental research.

669
00:28:26,490 –> 00:28:27,930
I could propose to them

670
00:28:27,930 –> 00:28:31,980
to look at the decomposing tissue

671
00:28:31,980 –> 00:28:34,380
and see what happens
to the nitrogen values.

672
00:28:34,380 –> 00:28:36,600
And when I got there, I
basically asked, I said,

673
00:28:36,600 –> 00:28:39,240
I have this idea and it has dual purpose

674
00:28:39,240 –> 00:28:43,740
because by doing it with
human tissue at the body farm,

675
00:28:43,740 –> 00:28:45,960
at the forensic anthropology
center in Tennessee,

676
00:28:45,960 –> 00:28:47,820
which is the world famous known

677
00:28:47,820 –> 00:28:51,090
as the body farm was started in the 1980s

678
00:28:51,090 –> 00:28:54,510
that focuses on human
decomposition research

679
00:28:54,510 –> 00:28:57,810
for doing forensic anthropology casework.

680
00:28:57,810 –> 00:29:01,830
I could say nobody’s looked
at this as a estimation

681
00:29:01,830 –> 00:29:03,120
of time since death.

682
00:29:03,120 –> 00:29:05,010
This could be a new method

683
00:29:05,010 –> 00:29:08,760
that we could use in forensic
anthropology to estimate

684
00:29:08,760 –> 00:29:12,540
how long someone has been dead
during that period of time.

685
00:29:12,540 –> 00:29:15,300
That is often difficult to identify

686
00:29:15,300 –> 00:29:18,390
how long have they been
actively decomposing.

687
00:29:18,390 –> 00:29:23,340
And so for me it was using
this real world applied

688
00:29:23,340 –> 00:29:27,510
anthropology forensic
casework related project

689
00:29:27,510 –> 00:29:29,670
that then I could take that same data

690
00:29:29,670 –> 00:29:33,630
and use it for this proposal
of high nitrogen values

691
00:29:33,630 –> 00:29:37,260
and Neanderthals because
muscle tissue is muscle tissue.

692
00:29:37,260 –> 00:29:39,900
– So I was wondering
if it was like starting

693
00:29:39,900 –> 00:29:41,830
with the trophic level people

694
00:29:41,830 –> 00:29:43,960
and then seeing if what the maggots did,

695
00:29:43,960 –> 00:29:46,360
but it sounds like that
was not as important

696
00:29:46,360 –> 00:29:49,450
as having access and like meet as meat

697
00:29:49,450 –> 00:29:51,490
and it had this dual purpose.

698
00:29:51,490 –> 00:29:55,960
– Exactly. And in the paper I
do talk about essentially if

699
00:29:55,960 –> 00:30:00,960
you adjusted what that starting
substrate muscle level was

700
00:30:00,970 –> 00:30:02,530
for what we use in humans,

701
00:30:02,530 –> 00:30:04,600
but we adjusted that to just the average

702
00:30:04,600 –> 00:30:06,400
of the herbivore meat value.

703
00:30:06,400 –> 00:30:10,450
You still get nitrogen values
that are of the fly larvae

704
00:30:10,450 –> 00:30:14,020
that are astronomically
higher than anything else

705
00:30:14,020 –> 00:30:16,750
that we see that would be being consumed.

706
00:30:16,750 –> 00:30:19,720
And to put this in
perspective, when you think

707
00:30:19,720 –> 00:30:24,720
of high nitrogen value foods,
we’re thinking marine mammals,

708
00:30:24,820 –> 00:30:27,580
pinnipeds consumption of seals.

709
00:30:27,580 –> 00:30:31,360
– That’s just like this
endlessly long chain of food.

710
00:30:31,360 –> 00:30:33,400
Like you’re just at plankton

711
00:30:33,400 –> 00:30:35,560
and then like seven kinds of fish

712
00:30:35,560 –> 00:30:39,370
and then you finally get to
something fatty, like a pin ape,

713
00:30:39,370 –> 00:30:42,430
like a seal or a shark or whatever.

714
00:30:42,430 –> 00:30:45,910
That’s just eaten the entire
food web basically in one bite.

715
00:30:45,910 –> 00:30:47,740
– Absolutely. But even in those values,

716
00:30:47,740 –> 00:30:51,310
you’re only getting into like
the low 20 per mil kind of

717
00:30:51,310 –> 00:30:53,170
for at most.

718
00:30:53,170 –> 00:30:57,525
And these fly larvae go up to
43 per mil. Oh my gosh. It’s

719
00:30:58,365 –> 00:30:59,860
– Astronomically high, right?

720
00:30:59,860 –> 00:31:02,140
And like a lion is like an eight, right?

721
00:31:02,140 –> 00:31:04,210
– It might be more like eight
to 10, somewhere in that

722
00:31:04,210 –> 00:31:05,210
– Range, eight to 10,
– Right?

723
00:31:05,210 –> 00:31:08,470
I’d have to look at the exact
values for the averages.

724
00:31:08,470 –> 00:31:10,150
– So a lion is more like a 10

725
00:31:10,150 –> 00:31:12,580
and then you have these seed
eaters, there are like a 20.

726
00:31:12,580 –> 00:31:16,840
And then for some reason the
maggots eating petrified flesh

727
00:31:16,840 –> 00:31:18,250
are 40.

728
00:31:18,250 –> 00:31:21,190
Does the petrifying flesh
part make a difference?

729
00:31:21,190 –> 00:31:22,960
Does it matter if it’s fresh tissue

730
00:31:22,960 –> 00:31:25,150
or petrified tissue? It does.

731
00:31:25,150 –> 00:31:28,570
– It ups the number on
orders of magnitude.

732
00:31:28,570 –> 00:31:33,460
So the black soldier
flies, they arrived in June

733
00:31:33,460 –> 00:31:35,470
and I sampled them from June

734
00:31:35,470 –> 00:31:39,730
until essentially December when
I can no longer collect live

735
00:31:39,730 –> 00:31:41,410
fly larva anymore.

736
00:31:41,410 –> 00:31:44,770
And that just trend increases
and increases and increases.

737
00:31:44,770 –> 00:31:48,400
And so part of it is that
the muscle is long gone,

738
00:31:48,400 –> 00:31:49,660
the tissue is long gone.

739
00:31:49,660 –> 00:31:52,210
But what has happened
is through decomposition

740
00:31:52,210 –> 00:31:55,570
that let’s say soupy decomp,

741
00:31:55,570 –> 00:32:00,570
fluid rich soil is what the
flies are still attracted to.

742
00:32:00,730 –> 00:32:04,300
And those magnets are
continuing to develop in

743
00:32:04,300 –> 00:32:07,570
that soupy nutrient rich soil.

744
00:32:07,570 –> 00:32:10,870
That cycling of nitrogen is continuing.

745
00:32:10,870 –> 00:32:15,040
And though those maggot
masses are still associated

746
00:32:15,040 –> 00:32:16,330
with a skeleton,

747
00:32:16,330 –> 00:32:18,730
they’re not actually feeding on the fresh

748
00:32:18,730 –> 00:32:20,140
muscle tissue anymore.

749
00:32:20,140 –> 00:32:24,010
That’s been gone for
six months, nine months.

750
00:32:24,010 –> 00:32:27,370
But that fly larvae still there in mass,

751
00:32:27,370 –> 00:32:31,390
like huge masses of fly
alarm. It’s incredible.

752
00:32:31,390 –> 00:32:34,360
– The idea then is that you
can go back to a kill site

753
00:32:34,360 –> 00:32:36,790
and say, oh, there’s not
really much for me to chew on,

754
00:32:36,790 –> 00:32:39,230
but look who’s been
chewing on things for me

755
00:32:39,230 –> 00:32:41,930
and I can now harvest
that from the maggots.

756
00:32:41,930 –> 00:32:45,020
– Absolutely. The interesting
thing too is like you think

757
00:32:45,020 –> 00:32:46,520
of lean gain meat.

758
00:32:46,520 –> 00:32:47,960
The maggots are converting

759
00:32:47,960 –> 00:32:52,760
that lean gain meat into a
fatty additive basically.

760
00:32:52,760 –> 00:32:55,880
So now you’re getting a
more nutritiously complete

761
00:32:56,780 –> 00:32:58,250
paleo menu item.

762
00:32:58,250 –> 00:33:00,050
– You looked at a number
of different flies

763
00:33:00,050 –> 00:33:02,390
and their larva over this period of time.

764
00:33:02,390 –> 00:33:03,890
There are three species.

765
00:33:03,890 –> 00:33:06,530
Did these guys coexist
with neander tunnels?

766
00:33:06,530 –> 00:33:09,410
Like were they around at the
same time in the same place

767
00:33:09,410 –> 00:33:11,030
where these measurements were taken?

768
00:33:11,030 –> 00:33:14,660
– So we don’t know specifically
that the specific species

769
00:33:14,660 –> 00:33:16,430
of black soldier flies were around,

770
00:33:16,430 –> 00:33:19,430
but we do know that the
family of flies were around at

771
00:33:19,430 –> 00:33:22,820
that time and had already
evolved concurrently.

772
00:33:22,820 –> 00:33:24,860
And so there would’ve been flies.

773
00:33:24,860 –> 00:33:27,650
Flies would have been there and landing

774
00:33:27,650 –> 00:33:30,050
and interested in this animal stored

775
00:33:30,050 –> 00:33:31,790
– Foods and it wasn’t too cold

776
00:33:31,790 –> 00:33:33,020
for them or anything like that.

777
00:33:33,020 –> 00:33:34,610
’cause you went all the way to December in

778
00:33:34,610 –> 00:33:36,170
Tennessee, which is pretty cold.

779
00:33:36,170 –> 00:33:38,120
– It is pretty cold. And
actually if you look at the

780
00:33:38,120 –> 00:33:40,310
temperatures in Tennessee

781
00:33:40,310 –> 00:33:43,310
and look at some of the
experimental research

782
00:33:43,310 –> 00:33:46,460
that’s been done in
Neanderthal temperatures,

783
00:33:46,460 –> 00:33:47,510
there is overlap.

784
00:33:47,510 –> 00:33:49,460
– Okay. Let’s talk a little bit about some

785
00:33:49,460 –> 00:33:50,900
of the alternative explanations here.

786
00:33:50,900 –> 00:33:52,460
Like as we mentioned like eating out

787
00:33:52,460 –> 00:33:55,850
of the sea can really
boost nitrogen levels.

788
00:33:55,850 –> 00:33:59,060
Is it possible that Neanderthal
somehow had access to a lot

789
00:33:59,060 –> 00:34:02,450
of fish, a lot of high
trophic level sea critters

790
00:34:02,450 –> 00:34:04,400
and that kind of, or termites?

791
00:34:04,400 –> 00:34:05,840
I don’t know, something else, like

792
00:34:05,840 –> 00:34:08,210
how do we eliminate those
other possibilities?

793
00:34:08,210 –> 00:34:09,710
– I don’t think that we do.

794
00:34:09,710 –> 00:34:14,710
I think we need to reframe
this focus on hyper carnivore

795
00:34:14,750 –> 00:34:17,810
and mammoth eating and eating so much meat

796
00:34:17,810 –> 00:34:21,020
and we need to kind of try
to change this narrative

797
00:34:21,020 –> 00:34:23,840
and this narrative there
has been pushback on

798
00:34:23,840 –> 00:34:27,170
for the last 20 years and yet it persists.

799
00:34:27,170 –> 00:34:30,680
– Oh yeah. If we look at
anatomically modern humans

800
00:34:30,680 –> 00:34:34,370
that were coexisting with
Neanderthals at this time,

801
00:34:34,370 –> 00:34:37,430
what are their nitrogen isotope levels?

802
00:34:37,430 –> 00:34:39,050
Exactly the same as

803
00:34:39,050 –> 00:34:41,990
– Neanderthals of the
published literature.

804
00:34:41,990 –> 00:34:46,370
And I included it in the paper,
the mean values of nitrogen

805
00:34:46,370 –> 00:34:48,710
for Neanderthals and the mean values of

806
00:34:48,710 –> 00:34:51,950
for anatomically modern
humans are exactly the same.

807
00:34:51,950 –> 00:34:53,750
– So everybody was at the barbecue,

808
00:34:53,750 –> 00:34:55,670
everyone was eating
putrid meat with the side

809
00:34:55,670 –> 00:34:56,750
of maggots. Everybody.

810
00:34:56,750 –> 00:35:00,290
– Absolutely. And I
think the push has been,

811
00:35:00,290 –> 00:35:03,470
when you look at the archeological
record, the associated,

812
00:35:03,470 –> 00:35:07,490
so archeological bony remains
anatomically modern humans are

813
00:35:07,490 –> 00:35:10,040
often associated with having
their high nitrogen value

814
00:35:10,040 –> 00:35:14,840
explanation is eating fresh
water, fish, eating waterfowl,

815
00:35:14,840 –> 00:35:18,320
eating a wider diversity of
food, so having a wider diet.

816
00:35:18,320 –> 00:35:22,070
Neanderthals, the focus
has been on hyper carnivore

817
00:35:22,070 –> 00:35:25,280
because you get the terrestrial
mammal bones at those sites.

818
00:35:25,280 –> 00:35:27,740
You don’t see the fish, you
don’t see the waterfowl.

819
00:35:27,740 –> 00:35:30,740
And so that’s where even though
they have the same values,

820
00:35:30,740 –> 00:35:33,410
this interpretation has
diverged in these two

821
00:35:33,410 –> 00:35:34,700
different directions.

822
00:35:34,700 –> 00:35:35,780
But you have the grand

823
00:35:35,780 –> 00:35:37,440
– Unifying theory of maggots.

824
00:35:37,440 –> 00:35:39,810
– Yes, I’m gonna become
known as maggot Melanie,

825
00:35:39,810 –> 00:35:42,060
it’s just gonna be in my future.

826
00:35:42,060 –> 00:35:43,590
The alliteration is there.

827
00:35:45,360 –> 00:35:46,920
– That’s really interesting. I had no idea

828
00:35:46,920 –> 00:35:48,690
that it was exactly the same.

829
00:35:48,690 –> 00:35:50,910
At the end of the day, we have data,

830
00:35:50,910 –> 00:35:52,410
but we don’t know how to interpret it.

831
00:35:52,410 –> 00:35:54,840
Like we have a test that we like to do

832
00:35:54,840 –> 00:35:58,260
and it’s giving us numbers,
but we need a story.

833
00:35:58,260 –> 00:36:00,570
We need other things to kind of prop up.

834
00:36:00,570 –> 00:36:02,880
That happens all over science. That’s

835
00:36:02,880 –> 00:36:06,330
– The thing is when we’re
talking about a story

836
00:36:06,330 –> 00:36:08,730
of Neanderthals, we’ve
talked about it in terms

837
00:36:08,730 –> 00:36:11,160
of exceptionalism and
how different they are

838
00:36:11,160 –> 00:36:12,600
and why they’re different.

839
00:36:12,600 –> 00:36:15,930
And I think maybe it’s
time that we really reframe

840
00:36:15,930 –> 00:36:17,760
who our cousins are.

841
00:36:17,760 –> 00:36:21,600
Are they even actually
cousins or are they just us?

842
00:36:21,600 –> 00:36:25,380
They’re probably doing things
like cooking, storing foods,

843
00:36:25,380 –> 00:36:30,270
processing foods in ways that
the baseline nitrogen value of

844
00:36:30,270 –> 00:36:32,850
what they were eating is just like

845
00:36:32,850 –> 00:36:36,060
what modern humans were
doing to their foods.

846
00:36:36,060 –> 00:36:38,790
And you end up with those
higher nitrogen values

847
00:36:38,790 –> 00:36:42,360
that place humans at that
top of that trophic food web.

848
00:36:42,360 –> 00:36:45,660
– I get like pretty squid
out by not individual bugs,

849
00:36:45,660 –> 00:36:48,270
but like any kind of, as you
keep saying, masses of bugs.

850
00:36:48,270 –> 00:36:50,460
Like I really get Did
you have like that kind

851
00:36:50,460 –> 00:36:52,680
of problem when you’re
doing your field work there?

852
00:36:52,680 –> 00:36:54,120
– No, I did not.

853
00:36:54,120 –> 00:36:57,930
But my background, I worked at
a coroner’s office, so Okay.

854
00:36:57,930 –> 00:37:00,510
Being around death investigation, being

855
00:37:00,510 –> 00:37:05,340
around dead bodies in varied
states of decomposition,

856
00:37:05,340 –> 00:37:07,020
that’s very normal for me.

857
00:37:07,020 –> 00:37:09,150
– Thanks, Melanie. It’s
been really fun talking.

858
00:37:09,150 –> 00:37:10,260
– Yes, this has been wonderful.

859
00:37:10,260 –> 00:37:12,330
Thank you for having me on the podcast.

860
00:37:12,330 –> 00:37:14,070
– Melanie Beasley is
an assistant professor

861
00:37:14,070 –> 00:37:16,170
of anthropology at Purdue University.

862
00:37:16,170 –> 00:37:18,330
You can find a link to the
science advances paper we

863
00:37:18,330 –> 00:37:20,730
discussed at science.org/podcast.

864
00:37:23,640 –> 00:37:25,680
– Thanks to our friends
at the Science podcast

865
00:37:25,680 –> 00:37:27,570
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866
00:37:27,570 –> 00:37:29,640
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867
00:37:29,640 –> 00:37:33,090
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868
00:37:33,090 –> 00:37:36,060
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869
00:37:36,060 –> 00:37:38,580
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870
00:37:39,570 –> 00:37:42,570
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871
00:37:42,570 –> 00:37:45,930
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872
00:37:45,930 –> 00:37:47,790
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873
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876
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882
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883
00:38:14,220 –> 00:38:15,053
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