Biruté Mary Galdikas – A Life Among Orangutans

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Biruté Galdikas: We had decided to follow
one animal day after day from sunrise till

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dark. never letting him out of our sight.

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Now we became the first to
discover what we had only suspected

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from occasional sightings.

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The large male orangutan does almost
100% of his long

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distance traveling on the ground.

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Meredith Johnson: This is Origin
Stories. the Leakey Foundation Podcast.

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I’m Meredith Johnson.

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Dr. Birute Mary Galdikas passed away on
March 24th. 2026 at the age of 79.

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She spent more than 50 years
studying orangutans in Borneo

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and fighting to protect them.

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Before Birute Galdikas orangutans were the
least understood of the great apes.

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She changed that. She began her
life’s work in 1971 with mentorship

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from Louis Leakey and a modest Leakey
Foundation grant of $15.700 to

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support her first years in the field.

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She was the first to learn what they
ate. how they lived. how they moved their

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long interbirth intervals. and so much more.
including the threats they were facing.

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Early on in her work.

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She started the first
rehabilitation program for

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orphaned and ex captive orangutans.

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In 1986. she founded Orangutan
Foundation International to protect

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orangutans and preserve the forests
they depend on. Alongside her fellow

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mates. Jane Goodall and Dian Fossey.

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She transformed our
understanding of the great apes.

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Her lifelong dedication inspired
generations to care about

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orangutans and their forests. and
to pursue careers in the field

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she helped shape.

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I had the honor and privilege of
interviewing Birute Galdikas in 2021 on

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the 50th anniversary of her study.

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We’re re-releasing this
episode today in her honor.

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Biruté Galdikas: When I was a child. I.

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I lived in Toronto. and this was many
years ago because. you know. I’m 75 now

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and there wasn’t much light pollution
and my parents would allow me to go

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into our backyard and I would lay
there in the early evening and look up

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at the stars that. you know. gleamed
above me. gleamed and glistened above me.

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And I was maybe five years old.

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And I asked those questions that
many people ask when they’re

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young and even when they’re older.

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Who the heck are we?

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Where did we come from?

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And as I grew older. I began
to realize that our lineage

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was one of the great apes

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Meredith Johnson: in high school.

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Birute came across a photograph
of a Sumatran orangutan that was

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looking straight into the camera

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Biruté Galdikas: and from.

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The lower lip up. he looked so
human that you could have almost

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mistaken him for a human being.

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And that photograph is what gripped
me. and that’s when I started

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being interested in orangutans.

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And of course. please
remember. 60 years ago.

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Nobody knew anything about orangutans.

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I mean. people didn’t know if they
were solitary. they were social.

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They didn’t even know if they
were fruit eaters or leaf eaters.

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They were the mysterious ape.

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That mystery caught a hold of me.

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Meredith Johnson: She knew she had
to somehow find her way to Southeast

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Asia to study orangutans herself.

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Fast forward a few years and Birute Galdikas
was a young graduate student in UCLA’s

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anthropology program. and one day her
archeology professor invited Louis Leakey

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to come give a lecture to her class.

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Biruté Galdikas: As it turned out.
the interest in the lecture was so

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great that the university moved the
lecture and a huge crowd gathered.

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I mean. uh. there were people banging on
the doors because all of them could not

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get in after the doors closed and Louis.

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Leakey.

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You know. he was. he kind of
spoke like a preacher man. an old

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time silver tongue preacher man.

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I mean. he. he could really hold an
audience with his. with his speech and

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the way he told stories and anecdotes
and during the question and answer

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period. he really caught fire and.

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You know. he was very dramatic.

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He patted his shirt pocket and he said
that he had just received a telegram

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from Dian Fossey that a wild gorilla
was tying and untying her shoelaces.

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And he explained who Dian Fossey was.
somebody that he had helped. you know. go

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to. uh. study Mountain Gorillas in Africa.

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And as he spoke. the
realization came to me.

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That this was the person.
this was the person who would

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unlock the universe for me.

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So I waited and waited and waited.

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You know. people crowded around him. asked
questions. people sort of faded away.

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And then I was left maybe with
one or two other people by myself.

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And I approached Louis
Leakey and I told him.

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I want to study orangutans.
will you help me?

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And as Louis Leakey looked at
me and I looked back at him.

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we recognized each other.

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It was like we had known
each other for millennia.

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And then he said. I am
leaving for Africa tomorrow.

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Write me a letter. keep in touch with me.

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And I said. well. where do I write?

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What’s your address?

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And he said. just write Louis Leakey.

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Olduvai Gorge.

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Um. Africa. it’ll get to me.

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So I thanked him and I walked away
and I knew as I walked away that

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my dream. my vision of going to
Southeast Asia was now a reality.

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Then I got home and my mother was all
excited and she said somebody had called

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on behalf of Louis Leakey. and you are
to go to Westwood and meet him there.

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Meredith Johnson: The person who called
was a woman named Joan Travis. one of

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the founders of the Leakey Foundation.

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She said that Louis’s trip was postponed
and he wanted to meet with Birute.

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Biruté Galdikas: So the next day I went
to Joan’s house. sat on the sofa with

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Louis Leakey. and he interviewed me.

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Now. the other thing I have to tell you
is even if I had not met Louis Leakey.

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I would’ve gone there on my
own and I would’ve done it.

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I mean. I’m. I know this. I’m
convinced of it. but Louis Leakey was

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the path that made it easier for me.

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He was the one that
opened up the universe.

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Meredith Johnson: Even with Louis Leakey’s
support. it was three years before Birute.

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He was able to go to Borneo
to start her life’s work.

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Biruté Galdikas: And when you
are in your early twenties. three

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years seems like an eternity.

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Now. if somebody said to me. you
have to wait three years. I know

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it will pass in a blink of an eye.

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It’s a long time. but it’s not forever.

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Well. that three years
stretched like an eternity.

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It reached the point where I didn’t
even wanna go to UCLA because

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people would see me and as I stepped
out of an elevator. they’d say.

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oh. you’ve come back from Borneo.

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And I had to admit that
I hadn’t even gone.

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It was

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Meredith Johnson: to make
matters more complicated.

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Birute’s professors and peers kept
telling her that it would be impossible

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to study orangutans in the wild.

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The forests were too remote. dense.
and swampy. and the orangutans

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would be too hard to even find.

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But she was determined and once all
the funding and supplies and permits

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were finally in order. Birute and
her then husband Rod Brindamore set off

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to Borneo to begin what is now the
longest running study of any mammal

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led by one principal investigator.

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After years of waiting. they
finally arrived in Central

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Kalimantan in November. 1971.

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Here’s Birute talking about that time in a
lecture from the Leakey Foundation archive.

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Biruté Galdikas: Borneo is now called
Kalimantan. which means land of many

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rivers by the people who live there.

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Nothing characterizes
Borneo so much as rivers.

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Water swamps. rain and humidity.

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The humidity is about 90% much of
the time. and in some ways it is very

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much like living in a steam bath.

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Even today. there are a few
roads in Borneo and almost all

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the travel is done by boat.

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The Tanjan Puting Reserve. where we
conduct our research is near the coast.

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Rod and I set up a 35 square kilometer
study area in the Tanjan Puting Reserve by

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cutting a network of crisscrossing trails.

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Our main camp. Camp Leakey.

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Is by the Sequoia Cannon River. a
rather small and narrow river. which

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is frequently clogged by weeds.

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Meredith Johnson: Camp Leakey was a 12
hour journey by boat from the nearest

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town. and at first their only shelter
was a hut made of bark that they had

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found abandoned by its previous tenant.

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The heat and humidity were oppressive
and the insects were relentless.

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They got sores and tropical infections.
including malaria and dengue fever.

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They were often hungry and they spent
long. hard days in search of orangutans.

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After only three weeks at Camp Leakey
Birute encountered an orangutan who’d

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been captured by illegal loggers.

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Rod Brindamor and local forestry
officials confiscated the animal

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and brought her to Camp Leakey
for Birute to figure out how

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to rehabilitate. Soon after that.

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On December 25th. 1971. she
successfully followed a wild

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orangutan for the first time.

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Biruté Galdikas: And you know.
our clothes were ragged and

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clothes were wet. but we did it.

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We were there in Borneo.

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It was like a dream. you know?

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I was actually there.

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I was actually seeing wild
orangutans following them.

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I was in the forest every day.

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We just did it.

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Meredith Johnson: Do you remember
the first day that you actually

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looked into the eyes of an orangutan?

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Biruté Galdikas: Well. the first day.

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That I really looked into the eyes of wild
orangutan happened some months after I

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had been. uh. searching for. observing.
following and studying wild orangutans.

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And that was when an adolescent female
named Georgina after displaying. came

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down towards the ground and hung there.

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And gazed at me. gazed into my eyes.

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She was curious. and I don’t know whether
she gazed into my eyes for 30 seconds or

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five minutes. but it seemed like forever.

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And Rod Brindamore. who was
beside me. took one picture and I

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remember the click of the camera.

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I mean. it was like a
drumbeat or like a sonic boom.

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It was so loud in the
silence of the forest.

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And then she. you know. moved on and
I followed her. I think for 10 days

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afterwards. and she never did that again.

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Meredith Johnson: How were
you able to follow her?

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Biruté Galdikas: Well. the thing
about orangutans is in the

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canopy. uh. they’re relatively slow.

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Uh. you. if they’re not running away from
you. you can actually follow them. even

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if they’re relatively unhhabituated. no.

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If they’re running away from you. then
it’s difficult ’cause they do. they can

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move fast ’cause they’re up in the canopy
moving gracefully and smoothly while

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you’re stumbling along in the water and
over the tree stumps and vines and roots.

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The forest floor is a difficult.
uh. piece of terrain to

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navigate. especially the swamp.

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I mean. I followed orangutans
up to my armpit.

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In the black acidic waters of. you know.
the peat swamp forests where. where we

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work. and that was very. very difficult.

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I mean. waist deep was difficult.
even knee deep was difficult.

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especially if you’re sinking to
the mud underneath the water.

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So

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it’s a different universe
out there. I’m telling you.

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Meredith Johnson: Because so little
about orangutans was known to western

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science when she started in 1971.

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Every observation was a revelation.

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Here’s a recording of Birtue speaking
about it in a Leakey Foundation lecture.

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Biruté Galdikas: One of the most
memorable things that happened to me

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during my first six months in the field
was walking across an open field. an

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abandoned rice field. and finding a
sub-adult male. I presume. crossing it.

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And it was raining.

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I had just cut my leg.

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And. uh. it was a. it was a very
dramatic moment for me. uh. afterwards.

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I. I. I felt like rushing back to camp
and. uh. you know. sending a telegram

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to everybody that I could think of.

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Guess what?

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Orangutans are capable of leaving
the. uh. tropical rainforest.

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They’re not totally restricted to it.

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Meredith Johnson: The fact that orangutans
could and did walk on the ground sometimes

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was one of her early discoveries she
observed they could spend as much as half

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a day on the ground and that they build
sleeping nests high up in the canopy.

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She also soon learned that unlike
chimpanzees and gorillas. orangutans

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are more solitary than social.

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And once she started to discover
things. her field notes became an

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unending series of Eureka moments.

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Each individual discovery could have
defined the career of a primatologist of

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that era or even today. but put together
Birute Galdikas’s observations were astounding.

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She discovered that orangutans eat
primarily fruit. that adult males

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grow to be twice the size of females
and that they roam the forests alone.

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And she learned that orangutans are
mostly silent. but males occasionally

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make loud vocalizations called long calls.

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She and her then husband. Rod made the
first known recording of an orangutan

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long call. which can be heard for
up to two miles through the forest.

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It sounds like this.

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and that’s not all.

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They kept notes on thousands of trees and
they tracked how often they fruited and

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which trees the orangutans most preferred.

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She found that females live together
with their offspring in a smaller home

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range. and notably. she was the first to
observe a wild orangutan giving birth.

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Biruté Galdikas: Wild
orangutans are born in a nest.

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The mother is alone.

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And the first three years. the orangutan
infant will spend clinging to its mother’s

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body. either to her side. to her shoulder
and neck. or sometimes even to her head.

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By the time that an orangutan youngster
reaches seven or eight years of age.

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it is in the process of being weaned
by its mother and is also beginning to

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travel on its own. separated from her.

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One of the things that we discovered
that surprised us was that at

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least the Tanjan Puting forest. the
birth interval for orangutans is

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something like eight or nine years.

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Meredith Johnson: In 1974. she
accepted her first Indonesian college

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students who learned to follow
orangutans and help collect data.

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And in 1975. her work
began to make her famous.

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She was featured on the cover
of National Geographic just like

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her fellow Trimates. Jane and Dian.

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Soon after that. Birute gave birth to
a son who she and Rod named Binti.

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Binti spent the first years of his life
at Camp Leakey. and in 1977. an ex captive

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orangutan named Princess arrived and
Birute cared for her alongside her son.

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Very quickly. the camp grew to accommodate
more and more rescued orangutans.

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Biruté Galdikas: and I must confess that
despite our thousands of observation

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hours on wild orangutans. I learned
as much about pramgitams per se.

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About what they are and their percent
potential from being a surrogate mother

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to a long series of baby orangutans.

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This is what life is like
living with orangutans.

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And initially this hut had four
walls. and that blank space you see

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here is one of the walls that they
tore down. and that used to be the

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blank. the back wall eventually.

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Uh. they tore down all the walls of
the hut and we were forced to move to.

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uh. an orangutan proof wooden house.

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And now some of these rehabilitate
are getting quite big and they

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occasionally manage to. uh. take the.
uh. wire screening off our windows.

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It takes them about half an hour. but
they can do it if they really want to.

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Meredith Johnson: In 1978. after seven
years of field work. she got her PhD.

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She had her first research article
published in the Journal Science.

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and she went home to visit her parents.

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Biruté Galdikas: When my mother
found out that after I got my PhD

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that I planned to go back to Borneo.
she actually cried and my father.

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Who was a more stoic person said
something to my mother like. for

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heaven’s sake. she’s an adult.

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You know. she can do what she wants.

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And my mother understood at that
time. at that moment that studying

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orangutans was not something that
I was doing just to get my PhD.

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Um. but it took her a little bit of time.

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To realize that this
was my life’s mission.

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And when she realized that she
became extremely supportive.

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And in fact. she was the one who
as a volunteer. ran the Orangutan

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Foundation International. which I
established. uh. a few years later.

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And without her. we couldn’t have done it.

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Meredith Johnson: Although she’s
one of the founding mothers of

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modern primatology. her roots in
archeology influenced her work.

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Biruté Galdikas: One of the reasons I
went to Borneo and tried to understand

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Orangutans is because orangutans
are not our ancestors. but they’re

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similar in some ways to our ancestors.

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I mean. we emerged from the.

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For the canopies of the African
forest. but orangutan stayed behind

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and they’re still there in the forest.

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And it behooves us to ensure that they
continue to stay in those forests. that

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those forests that are our ancestral
forests continue to. uh. survive and are

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not. uh. annihilated. which is the process
that we are seeing right now with global.

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Climate change.

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So. you know. we can’t look in the
eyes of our ancestors. but we can

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look into the eyes of an orangutan.

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And see something.

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So. you know. we. we look
at our own prehistory.

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We look at our own archeology.

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When we gaze into the
eyes of an orangutan.

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Meredith Johnson: Birute returned
to Borneo. but Rod Brindamore didn’t.

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The couple divorced and Birute continued
her work studying the orangutans

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00:20:57.975 –> 00:21:03.225
and their forest home with the help
of her students in the early 1980s.

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She.

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00:21:03.585 –> 00:21:08.205
Married Pak Bohap. a local indigenous
Dayak man who worked as a research

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assistant at Camp Leaky in the seventies.

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They soon had two children together.
a son. Fred and a daughter Jane.

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amongst all her discoveries. little
and big. which illuminated the

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00:21:20.745 –> 00:21:25.275
mysterious lives of orangutans. the
big picture was becoming more clear.

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Orangutans weren’t just hard to find.

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They were in trouble.

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Their fate was tied to a forest and an
environment that was rapidly disappearing.

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In 1982. after years of campaigning.
Birute succeeded in convincing the

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00:21:40.305 –> 00:21:44.895
Indonesian government to change the
designation of Tanjang Puting from a

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00:21:44.895 –> 00:21:49.125
wildlife reserve to a national park.
which brought more protections.

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In 1986. she started Orangutan
Foundation International as a nonprofit

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00:21:54.285 –> 00:21:58.635
entity to fund her research
and educate people far and wide

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about the plight of the orangutan.

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By the late eighties. up to half of
Borneo primary rainforest had been

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destroyed by illegal logging. massive
forest fires. the needs of a growing

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population and open pit gold mining.

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The orangutan universe that
Birute had cataloged and tried to

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00:22:20.100 –> 00:22:22.320
protect was under grave threat.

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Biruté Galdikas: And unfortunately
I suspect that that universe is

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gone and will never come back again.

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You know. these are animals who
for thousands. tens of thousands.

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maybe even millions of years.
had the forest all to themselves.

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Meredith Johnson: The problem
isn’t just about the destruction

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of their food home or habitat.

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Destroying the rainforest fundamentally
challenges how orangutans have

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organized and spaced themselves away
from each other over millions of years.

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With less forest. you have more
violent interactions between

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orangutans who might never have met.

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Another big blow is tied to one
of Birute’s most groundbreaking

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00:23:11.460 –> 00:23:15.780
discoveries that orangutans have
the slowest reproductive rate of.

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Any mammal. orangutan. mothers can
only have one baby every six to eight

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years. which makes it very hard to
replace population loss on such a scale.

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Biruté Galdikas: The world has
changed and it’s never going

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to go back to where it was.

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I mean. one would hope that it would.
but it. you know. I don’t see it despite

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the work of many conservationists. you
know. we save a bit of forest here.

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We save a bit of forest there.

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But the massive annihilation still
goes on. you know. it’s like two steps

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00:23:50.730 –> 00:23:57.389
forward. three steps back. and the
world is still forging ahead to that

348
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day when. uh. the world’s temperature
will be two degrees hotter centigrade

349
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than it was 20. 30. 40 years ago.

350
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And we’re going to be in trouble.

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And so.

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I tried to do my little part by
trying to save and protect orangutans

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and their forests in Borneo.

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00:24:17.325 –> 00:24:17.895
Meredith Johnson: Does it?

355
00:24:18.495 –> 00:24:23.685
Yeah. it’s. I don’t even know what
to say to that. but I’m wondering.

356
00:24:23.775 –> 00:24:30.135
you know. in the face of all
this. how do you move forward?

357
00:24:30.135 –> 00:24:34.545
How do you motivate yourself
to. to keep working at this?

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00:24:34.755 –> 00:24:38.085
Biruté Galdikas: I motivate myself by
looking into the eyes of an orangutan.

359
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And realizing.

360
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That they are much more
vulnerable than we are.

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00:24:43.830 –> 00:24:45.990
Meredith Johnson: Over the years.
Birute lobbied the Indonesian

362
00:24:45.990 –> 00:24:49.560
government to introduce stronger
environmental protections. and she’s

363
00:24:49.560 –> 00:24:54.180
campaigned for consumer boycotts of
palm oil products and asked people

364
00:24:54.360 –> 00:24:56.280
to cut back on their use of paper.

365
00:24:56.905 –> 00:25:00.415
But now Orangutan Foundation
International focuses much of

366
00:25:00.415 –> 00:25:02.365
their work on planting trees.

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00:25:03.055 –> 00:25:10.735
Biruté Galdikas: Eight people in our tree
planting and Rewilding Union have planted

368
00:25:10.735 –> 00:25:14.455
almost half a million trees since 2017.

369
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Eight people. we sometimes hire
villagers to come in and plant.

370
00:25:18.205 –> 00:25:23.004
We also sometimes hire villagers to go
out and find seedlings for us in. uh.

371
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Primary forest with the
permission of the government.

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So we practice what we preach. and if
we had more funding. you know. we would

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plant more trees. we would protect
more land. we could actually buy land.

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Although that’s a complicated process
in. uh. Indonesia and Southeast Asia.

375
00:25:40.175 –> 00:25:40.895
We could do it.

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And we plant and we plant and we plant.

377
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So just keep on going. keep on doing.

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And you make a difference.

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00:25:50.145 –> 00:25:53.535
Meredith Johnson: So do you think
that it’s important for scientists

380
00:25:53.715 –> 00:25:56.205
like yourself to lean into activism?

381
00:25:56.475 –> 00:25:59.115
How do you see the connection
between those things?

382
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Biruté Galdikas: Absolutely.

383
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I think it’s very important for scientists
to get out there and speak to the public.

384
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Go and talk to people. sit in front of zoo
cages and talk to what’s happening to the

385
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animals in the wild that are represented
in those zoo cages to just be out there.

386
00:26:19.409 –> 00:26:22.980
Do like politicians do. go into
people’s living rooms and uh.

387
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and talk about what’s happening.

388
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And I think.

389
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It would be very helpful if more
scientists became politicians. but of

390
00:26:33.015 –> 00:26:38.025
course the problem is that if you’re a
scientist. that’s not your training. but

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it’s something that was made very clear
during my 50 years in Borneo. which.

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you know. I still in the study. which
I still continue with the orangutans.

393
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But the conservation work has come
directly from my scientific work

394
00:26:57.090 –> 00:27:02.879
because the science made me understand
in a more clear way the issues

395
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that orangutans and forests face.

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00:27:07.439 –> 00:27:10.139
Meredith Johnson: Over the 50 years
of her study. the population of

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00:27:10.139 –> 00:27:13.469
Bornean orangutans has declined by 50%.

398
00:27:14.639 –> 00:27:19.139
Some scientists predict they can hang
on for maybe another 50 years. but

399
00:27:19.139 –> 00:27:21.300
after that the future is uncertain.

400
00:27:21.840 –> 00:27:26.430
Biruté Galdikas: What’s going to
happen is the lowland tropical

401
00:27:26.430 –> 00:27:28.320
rainforest trees are going to die.

402
00:27:28.350 –> 00:27:32.669
So what’s going to happen is orangutans
are gonna be faced with famine unless

403
00:27:32.669 –> 00:27:36.690
something is done. and I don’t know
what human beings will be able to do

404
00:27:38.940 –> 00:27:40.290
because they can’t change the weather.

405
00:27:41.415 –> 00:27:42.585
You can’t change the climate.

406
00:27:43.635 –> 00:27:48.495
Meredith Johnson: So with all of
this kind of like bleak. you know.

407
00:27:49.335 –> 00:27:56.175
actually really frightening. bigger
than us kind of climate situation

408
00:27:56.175 –> 00:28:02.865
that we’re facing. what is your hope
for the orangutans in your life in

409
00:28:02.865 –> 00:28:06.825
the like. do you have hope for them?

410
00:28:10.170 –> 00:28:10.950
Biruté Galdikas: I have hope.

411
00:28:11.160 –> 00:28:15.300
And I have hope because there’s many
people. not just me. but many people that

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are trying to work to save orangutans
and um. you know. we do the best we can.

413
00:28:22.290 –> 00:28:27.750
Like I said. we’re a small organization.
but we employ 250 local. mainly

414
00:28:27.750 –> 00:28:31.655
indigenous Indonesians in Borneo.
and all of them work very. very hard.

415
00:28:32.810 –> 00:28:38.600
And. uh. the pandemic really has put a
stopper in our tree planting program.

416
00:28:38.899 –> 00:28:41.120
but we still continue planting trees.

417
00:28:41.120 –> 00:28:44.270
We still continue education
programs. and I have hope.

418
00:28:44.270 –> 00:28:48.740
I mean. I’m a human being and
humans are eternally optimistic.

419
00:28:49.379 –> 00:28:55.080
But again. I don’t think it
necessarily depends on the scientists

420
00:28:55.080 –> 00:28:57.000
like myself or the naturalists.

421
00:28:57.510 –> 00:29:01.110
I mean. we try. we really
try. but it depends on the

422
00:29:01.110 –> 00:29:02.820
politicians who rule this world.

423
00:29:03.389 –> 00:29:04.919
We have the power in this world.

424
00:29:05.490 –> 00:29:06.750
I think we do have hope.

425
00:29:07.709 –> 00:29:14.370
It’s just that now it seems bleak
because the actors that we thought

426
00:29:14.969 –> 00:29:18.629
would move in that direction are
not really moving in that direction.

427
00:29:18.929 –> 00:29:21.780
But if they started moving in that
direction. then there is hope.

428
00:29:23.490 –> 00:29:27.420
But in reality. I’m just a person who
sits in the forest and follows wild

429
00:29:27.420 –> 00:29:32.160
orangutans and tries to save them
by planting trees and educating the

430
00:29:32.160 –> 00:29:35.580
young in Borneo and in other places too.

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00:29:41.070 –> 00:29:45.360
Meredith Johnson: That was Dr.
Birute Mary Galdikas. recorded in 2021.

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I’m so grateful that she sat down with us
for that conversation. and I’m grateful

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that we get to share it again now.

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The world is much poorer
without Birute. but the work she

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cared about so much continues.

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If you want to support her legacy.
the best way is a donation to

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00:30:10.275 –> 00:30:12.225
Orangutan Foundation International.

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00:30:12.855 –> 00:30:17.115
You can find them at orangutan.org. and
there’s a link in your show notes.

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00:30:18.600 –> 00:30:22.290
Origin Stories is a project of
the Leaky Foundation. a nonprofit

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00:30:22.290 –> 00:30:26.100
dedicated to funding human origins
research and sharing discoveries.

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00:30:27.000 –> 00:30:30.180
We’re proud to have given Dr. Galdikas
19 grants over the course of

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00:30:30.180 –> 00:30:33.450
her career. including the one that
helped launch her life’s work.

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We support orangutan research and studies
of other wild primates around the world.

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00:30:39.540 –> 00:30:41.685
You can support our
work at leakyfoundation.org.

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00:30:41.995 –> 00:30:43.104
Slash donate.

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00:30:44.334 –> 00:30:47.995
We’re grateful to all of our listener
supporters for making this show possible.

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00:30:48.354 –> 00:30:50.935
We really can’t do it
without you. so thank you.

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00:30:51.985 –> 00:30:55.675
Support for Origin Stories also comes
from Camilla and George Smith. the

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00:30:55.675 –> 00:30:59.844
Anne and Gordon Getty Foundation. and the
Joan and Arnold Travis Education Fund.

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00:31:00.810 –> 00:31:03.480
This episode was produced
by me and Ray Pang.

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00:31:03.810 –> 00:31:04.140
Sound.

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00:31:04.140 –> 00:31:05.310
Designed by Ray Pang.

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00:31:05.400 –> 00:31:06.990
Our editor is Audrey Quinn.

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00:31:07.350 –> 00:31:08.940
Theme music by Henry Nagle.

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00:31:09.210 –> 00:31:12.510
Additional music by Blue
Dot Sessions and Lee Roservere.

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00:31:12.990 –> 00:31:14.910
We’ll be back soon with a new episode.

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Thanks for listening.